The whole history of civilization is strewn with creeds and institutions which were invaluable at first, and deadly afterwards.
-- Walter Bagehot
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
Wednesday, March 21, 2007
A conversation, part 3
Definitely mistakes have been made here, but the mistake is not that we pulled out too late. I'll tell you what the mistake was and you can't disagree with me. Okay - first off I want to say, that I was never in support of a war that was not sanctioned by the UN.
I made up my mind and declared that openly before the war was started so that I would always be able to say that I did not support the opening of this war. But that's not the mistake. Once our troops fired the first shot, I forced myself to be 100% for the war because nay saying a war that we're already in does an incalculable disservice to the troops and is counterproductive, and in fact, I think, just wrong on nearly every level.
But I hoped, and I prayed for the Iraqis with my family at dinner every night, during the invasion. I prayed that the US would rebuild Iraq as we did Japan and Germany. Obviously the invasion took a very short period of time.
I had EXPECTED us to swarm Iraq with rebuilding afterwards. When a month went by and most people in Baghdad still did not have utilities, I knew things were heading for the shitter.
THIS was the KEY MISTAKE.
That we did not rebuild Iraq with as much gusto as we destroyed it. Had we spent 50 billion on rebuilding it and let every nation and contractor in, and used 200000 troopsrebuilding it, and had utilities back up to all citizens within weeks THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED
(m) That was A mistake (a major one), but not the key mistake. The key mistake was running in where others said we had no right. If there is not international support, we do not have themoral authority to do anything.
(m) The reason this supersedes the rebuilding points to cause. We demonstrated our purpose for being there not to help others, but to control our interests. Therefore, we would NEVER build them up. We are there to keep them under thumb.
(m) And that brings me to something else you said.... It is your obligation to not support some action by our government you find wrong. That's why we are a democracy. You can support the troops and not support the war.
Fact of the matter is, we have the right to do whatever is in our national self defense, regardless of what international consensus is. If China invaded California and the UN said we can't fight back, would you still say that we can't fight a war without international support?
"We demonstrated our purpose for being there not to help others, but to control our interests." No nation ever does anything in the genuine altruistic love for other people, Jason. Rose colored glasses, please be removed. Nations always act in their own self interests
(m) And see? You are wrong, but you prefer to see things through your hate smeared glasses. Maybe the truth lies between us, but its not as bad as you choose to believe. We are sending millions in relief to Africa for what in return? Nothing. Things are not black and white. That's just too easy.
The reasons we are in Iraq are plain, and no one should be deceived by the lies of the right or the left. We are in Iraq for oil and for strategic power - The middle east is a lynch pin in exerting military power against Russia and China.
(m) Yes, it is. I agree with you. And that's what I’ve been saying and THAT's why we should not be there. And you never answered me about supporting wars.
(m) As for the waiting for international support if we were invaded, that's infringing on our sovereignty. That's different. We invaded Iraq. Not ours, but their sovereignty.
There is a wrong way and a right way to effect a change in national militiary policy. The right way is to vote the offending politicians out of office.
(m) True, I agree. But you need to voice your thoughts on the war. Its your duty as an American.
The wrong way is for every media type to decry the war and for politicians to announce to the enemy that they've already won
(m) I'm talking about you accepting the war. Each person bears responsibility, myself included. I didn't do all I could have to end this, and I therefore bear responsibility
When Bush's reelection came around, I wanted to vote him out of office for what he did with Iraq, but there is a greater moral issue on my plate than the Iraq war.
(m) And that leads us into another discussion we will not agree on and I don’t have time for. Its 2.30
(m) Thank you for the debate. As always, I feel richer for the experience
Thanks Jason. Also I enjoyed it very much
I made up my mind and declared that openly before the war was started so that I would always be able to say that I did not support the opening of this war. But that's not the mistake. Once our troops fired the first shot, I forced myself to be 100% for the war because nay saying a war that we're already in does an incalculable disservice to the troops and is counterproductive, and in fact, I think, just wrong on nearly every level.
But I hoped, and I prayed for the Iraqis with my family at dinner every night, during the invasion. I prayed that the US would rebuild Iraq as we did Japan and Germany. Obviously the invasion took a very short period of time.
I had EXPECTED us to swarm Iraq with rebuilding afterwards. When a month went by and most people in Baghdad still did not have utilities, I knew things were heading for the shitter.
THIS was the KEY MISTAKE.
That we did not rebuild Iraq with as much gusto as we destroyed it. Had we spent 50 billion on rebuilding it and let every nation and contractor in, and used 200000 troopsrebuilding it, and had utilities back up to all citizens within weeks THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED
(m) That was A mistake (a major one), but not the key mistake. The key mistake was running in where others said we had no right. If there is not international support, we do not have themoral authority to do anything.
(m) The reason this supersedes the rebuilding points to cause. We demonstrated our purpose for being there not to help others, but to control our interests. Therefore, we would NEVER build them up. We are there to keep them under thumb.
(m) And that brings me to something else you said.... It is your obligation to not support some action by our government you find wrong. That's why we are a democracy. You can support the troops and not support the war.
Fact of the matter is, we have the right to do whatever is in our national self defense, regardless of what international consensus is. If China invaded California and the UN said we can't fight back, would you still say that we can't fight a war without international support?
"We demonstrated our purpose for being there not to help others, but to control our interests." No nation ever does anything in the genuine altruistic love for other people, Jason. Rose colored glasses, please be removed. Nations always act in their own self interests
(m) And see? You are wrong, but you prefer to see things through your hate smeared glasses. Maybe the truth lies between us, but its not as bad as you choose to believe. We are sending millions in relief to Africa for what in return? Nothing. Things are not black and white. That's just too easy.
The reasons we are in Iraq are plain, and no one should be deceived by the lies of the right or the left. We are in Iraq for oil and for strategic power - The middle east is a lynch pin in exerting military power against Russia and China.
(m) Yes, it is. I agree with you. And that's what I’ve been saying and THAT's why we should not be there. And you never answered me about supporting wars.
(m) As for the waiting for international support if we were invaded, that's infringing on our sovereignty. That's different. We invaded Iraq. Not ours, but their sovereignty.
There is a wrong way and a right way to effect a change in national militiary policy. The right way is to vote the offending politicians out of office.
(m) True, I agree. But you need to voice your thoughts on the war. Its your duty as an American.
The wrong way is for every media type to decry the war and for politicians to announce to the enemy that they've already won
(m) I'm talking about you accepting the war. Each person bears responsibility, myself included. I didn't do all I could have to end this, and I therefore bear responsibility
When Bush's reelection came around, I wanted to vote him out of office for what he did with Iraq, but there is a greater moral issue on my plate than the Iraq war.
(m) And that leads us into another discussion we will not agree on and I don’t have time for. Its 2.30
(m) Thank you for the debate. As always, I feel richer for the experience
Thanks Jason. Also I enjoyed it very much
A conversation, part 2: Hearts and Minds
(m) Are things better of worse there since we invaded?
Are things better or worse for WHO, Jason?
(m) 650k dead Iraqis would say worse. For Iraq. That's where we are talking about
Who comes first here, man? Americans have to care about America first
(m) God would say everyone is equal. If you are Christian, you have to go with that. Period.
God would, but didn't you learn anything about power in your international relations classes?
(m) HA, I pulled religion before the conservative. A great deal. Its from those classes that I learned that we don’t know shite about waging this kind of a war. No one has a good formula for it, except to win the people's hearts and minds. If the bad people have no support, they cannot hide.
That's not possible, Jason. You don't win hearts and minds.
(m) Not for us being seen as invaders, no its not possible. You can win them, we just choose not to
Not for us period, the Islamic world is going to hate us for generations regardless of what happens in Iraq because of the existence of Israel.
(m) And for things we have done since then
Appease the terrorists and all you're going to do is weaken our position and make them more aggressive.
(m) No one is talking about appeasement. You are working with the people, not trying to control them. THAT's what we are not capable of. We are too self important
"Get out of Iraq!" "okay"
(m) We need to get our military out, or at least reduced significantly. That's not for the terrorists. That's for the hearts and minds of the people.
Are you interested in preserving America's position in the world or are you more interested in making terrorists happy? I don't understand? (I’m going to a meeting. Look forward to your response.)
(m) I think that question is more directed back at you. As you continue to send more troops, what will the people think? They will become angrier. America continues to invade us. If you are there to "save" the Iraqis, but are pushing yourself on them, then you are building negative feelings toward us.
(m) That fosters feelings of resentment and hatred. That allows the Iranians (I have not seen evidence for this, but I will use your example) to come in and whisper in their ear about making things better without the Americans.
(m) Then anyone who helps us becomes a target. We continue to slide down and down until we throw up our hands and say, "They don’t want to be helped."
(m) That's just arrogant. How did we feel when Britain sent troops to the colonies to protect us from the French? Its the same thing. What did we do? We started an insurgency that eventually topped the British presence here.
(m) Why do we believe Iraqis are any less than us? Again....arrogance. There is no other explanation for it.
(m) What we need to do is lessen the animosity toward us from the people, by removing the "redcoats from their houses" and then work WITH them. They govern themselves, not with a puppet we will support. We work on the humanitarian aspect and leave the rest alone.
(m) The sad fact is, I think this is too late. We should have pulled out before and allowed the UN to come in and help. Instead, we are worried about our Oil (not the people) and stayed there.
(m) This situation is a result of that. We created this ourselves. That resentment we talked about? The people in the mid-east continue to be reminded why we suck because we keep poking them. If someone came over here and did the same to us, we would have a fit.
(m) Ok, waiting for your return. Enjoy the book.
Okay I'm about half way through, and I have to point out that your understanding of the situation is apparently seriously flawed. Your central point is that the Iraqis hate US. When in fact the hate which is being generated there is against each other
(m) That hate has been there. We have given them a new target. And yes, unless you have negativity toward a group, there cannot be terrorism - by definition they hide among the people
I'll finish reading the rest of what you typed
Are things better or worse for WHO, Jason?
(m) 650k dead Iraqis would say worse. For Iraq. That's where we are talking about
Who comes first here, man? Americans have to care about America first
(m) God would say everyone is equal. If you are Christian, you have to go with that. Period.
God would, but didn't you learn anything about power in your international relations classes?
(m) HA, I pulled religion before the conservative. A great deal. Its from those classes that I learned that we don’t know shite about waging this kind of a war. No one has a good formula for it, except to win the people's hearts and minds. If the bad people have no support, they cannot hide.
That's not possible, Jason. You don't win hearts and minds.
(m) Not for us being seen as invaders, no its not possible. You can win them, we just choose not to
Not for us period, the Islamic world is going to hate us for generations regardless of what happens in Iraq because of the existence of Israel.
(m) And for things we have done since then
Appease the terrorists and all you're going to do is weaken our position and make them more aggressive.
(m) No one is talking about appeasement. You are working with the people, not trying to control them. THAT's what we are not capable of. We are too self important
"Get out of Iraq!" "okay"
(m) We need to get our military out, or at least reduced significantly. That's not for the terrorists. That's for the hearts and minds of the people.
Are you interested in preserving America's position in the world or are you more interested in making terrorists happy? I don't understand? (I’m going to a meeting. Look forward to your response.)
(m) I think that question is more directed back at you. As you continue to send more troops, what will the people think? They will become angrier. America continues to invade us. If you are there to "save" the Iraqis, but are pushing yourself on them, then you are building negative feelings toward us.
(m) That fosters feelings of resentment and hatred. That allows the Iranians (I have not seen evidence for this, but I will use your example) to come in and whisper in their ear about making things better without the Americans.
(m) Then anyone who helps us becomes a target. We continue to slide down and down until we throw up our hands and say, "They don’t want to be helped."
(m) That's just arrogant. How did we feel when Britain sent troops to the colonies to protect us from the French? Its the same thing. What did we do? We started an insurgency that eventually topped the British presence here.
(m) Why do we believe Iraqis are any less than us? Again....arrogance. There is no other explanation for it.
(m) What we need to do is lessen the animosity toward us from the people, by removing the "redcoats from their houses" and then work WITH them. They govern themselves, not with a puppet we will support. We work on the humanitarian aspect and leave the rest alone.
(m) The sad fact is, I think this is too late. We should have pulled out before and allowed the UN to come in and help. Instead, we are worried about our Oil (not the people) and stayed there.
(m) This situation is a result of that. We created this ourselves. That resentment we talked about? The people in the mid-east continue to be reminded why we suck because we keep poking them. If someone came over here and did the same to us, we would have a fit.
(m) Ok, waiting for your return. Enjoy the book.
Okay I'm about half way through, and I have to point out that your understanding of the situation is apparently seriously flawed. Your central point is that the Iraqis hate US. When in fact the hate which is being generated there is against each other
(m) That hate has been there. We have given them a new target. And yes, unless you have negativity toward a group, there cannot be terrorism - by definition they hide among the people
I'll finish reading the rest of what you typed
A conversation, part 1
I had a conversation with a friend. As you will see, we disagree. Actually, we disagree on many things, but we enjoy the debate. This is not the first and I hope this will not be the last. I think there's no better way to find out what you really think than to debate with someone about it. Not to mention, some times, you find that your ideas are not what you thought them to be. Heck, they might even change. *gasp*
This conversation started with the following article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_pf.html
His text will be in blue and mine will be in green and mine will start with a (m).
My answer to that article is we better hurry up and defeat Iran to stop the murder of Iraqis by Iranians and their proxies. I think this could authorize another 200000 troops.
(m) Bleh
I'm serious. When you hear - almost daily – that another 100 Iraqis were killed, what was the cause? Us missile strike? An attack of American tanks? No, 99% of the time it's an insurgentblowing something up to kill Iraqis.
(m) And how does our being there stop any of that? It provokes more. Listen, we cannot win this war. It cannot be done. The people hate us. Just leave and put our resources toward helping feed and house people.
I think this is a misconstruction. The people performing the vast majority of the attacks aren't Joe Bob and Mary Jane average Iraqis. Its Iranian supported insurgents, trying to kill Sunnis in order to begin and fuel a civil war so that American forces will withdraw.
(m) Its neighborhood vs. neighborhood.
Started and fueled by Iran.
(m) So what? Let’s just bomb everyone.
I didn't say bomb Iran.
(m) Someone somewhere won’t agree with our version of democracy.
Though I wouldn't be displeased by bombing Iran :) You know I feel that we can defeat Iran through other means.
This conversation started with the following article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_pf.html
His text will be in blue and mine will be in green and mine will start with a (m).
My answer to that article is we better hurry up and defeat Iran to stop the murder of Iraqis by Iranians and their proxies. I think this could authorize another 200000 troops.
(m) Bleh
I'm serious. When you hear - almost daily – that another 100 Iraqis were killed, what was the cause? Us missile strike? An attack of American tanks? No, 99% of the time it's an insurgentblowing something up to kill Iraqis.
(m) And how does our being there stop any of that? It provokes more. Listen, we cannot win this war. It cannot be done. The people hate us. Just leave and put our resources toward helping feed and house people.
I think this is a misconstruction. The people performing the vast majority of the attacks aren't Joe Bob and Mary Jane average Iraqis. Its Iranian supported insurgents, trying to kill Sunnis in order to begin and fuel a civil war so that American forces will withdraw.
(m) Its neighborhood vs. neighborhood.
Started and fueled by Iran.
(m) So what? Let’s just bomb everyone.
I didn't say bomb Iran.
(m) Someone somewhere won’t agree with our version of democracy.
Though I wouldn't be displeased by bombing Iran :) You know I feel that we can defeat Iran through other means.
Friday, March 9, 2007
Since then...
Since this time things have settled out. Lisa and I have been settling into our new life together. We have a routine and life goes on. We tried going to Atonement, but it was not comfortable. I had not been for some time and Pastor Joe was a little standoffish. I think he didn't know what to make of this guy who was excited about his Calling walking away from it. I certianly didn't know how to explain to him.
I do not want to say we are not going to Atonement because of Pastor Joe. That is very inaccurate. As we have begun our search into religion, Atonement was just not the right fit anymore. I was not the same person, and it wasn't about me anymore. We tried Alpha Marriage and somewhat enjoyed it, although there was one topic that caused an issue for us.
So, we stopped going. We have discussed other churches. We have discussed what we believe and what we find important. We have started attending a new church, St. Andrew Christian Church - Disciples of Christ. We have only been twice, but its a very open congregation. It feels good to be there.
Those same questions continue to tug at me. Should I be back at Seminary? What religion is mine? I have so many opinions that do not meet with so many denominations. What the heck is real? Is there any end to all the questions? That one, at least, I can answer - I hope not.
I do not want to say we are not going to Atonement because of Pastor Joe. That is very inaccurate. As we have begun our search into religion, Atonement was just not the right fit anymore. I was not the same person, and it wasn't about me anymore. We tried Alpha Marriage and somewhat enjoyed it, although there was one topic that caused an issue for us.
So, we stopped going. We have discussed other churches. We have discussed what we believe and what we find important. We have started attending a new church, St. Andrew Christian Church - Disciples of Christ. We have only been twice, but its a very open congregation. It feels good to be there.
Those same questions continue to tug at me. Should I be back at Seminary? What religion is mine? I have so many opinions that do not meet with so many denominations. What the heck is real? Is there any end to all the questions? That one, at least, I can answer - I hope not.
Concordance
The spring before seminary, Lisa, and Dad's death, my Aunts came to visit us. They came to see their sick brother. Aunt Brenda asked me if there was anything of Granddaddy's I would like to have. Something to remember him by. I responded that I had something in mind, but that I shouldn't be the first in line. If anyone else wanted these then I would not fight for them. His 3 daughters and son should have the opportunity first.
She smiled and asked what it was. "His Concordance," I responded. "To think of all the hours he spent pouring over that and to see his notes in the margins...." She smiled and told me she knew I was going to say that. She had spoken with Granddaddy before he passed and they had agreed that I should inherit them. Grandmother was in agreement, but that I should wait until she had gone. She may want to look at them and remember him.
I was floored. They had discussed this? This was like something out of a book. How could everyone else see this in me and it not be apparent to me? I'm fully aware of the box in psych that describes knowledge of yourself (this may be from another discipline, but this is how I remember it.) Its broken down into the 4 sections: Everyone knows, I know, They know, no one knows. Still, it was amazing.
After my Grandmother passed during the whirlwind end of that year, I was given many of the books from my Grandfather's library. I still have them. Just looking at them makes me feel close to him....and to God in some strange way. I have not read them, and there they sit.
She smiled and asked what it was. "His Concordance," I responded. "To think of all the hours he spent pouring over that and to see his notes in the margins...." She smiled and told me she knew I was going to say that. She had spoken with Granddaddy before he passed and they had agreed that I should inherit them. Grandmother was in agreement, but that I should wait until she had gone. She may want to look at them and remember him.
I was floored. They had discussed this? This was like something out of a book. How could everyone else see this in me and it not be apparent to me? I'm fully aware of the box in psych that describes knowledge of yourself (this may be from another discipline, but this is how I remember it.) Its broken down into the 4 sections: Everyone knows, I know, They know, no one knows. Still, it was amazing.
After my Grandmother passed during the whirlwind end of that year, I was given many of the books from my Grandfather's library. I still have them. Just looking at them makes me feel close to him....and to God in some strange way. I have not read them, and there they sit.
Thursday, March 8, 2007
The Lisas are coming
This was an eventful summer. While I was getting set for seminary and dealing with Dad’s cancer, I was playing a game. It’s an online game called World of Warcraft. It’s a good stress reliever.
While playing this summer, I met someone. We got closer over time. After Dad passed away, I could not wait anymore. Life was too short. I met Lisa the weekend after the funeral.
We fell in love. A month later I asked her to marry me and she said, “Yes.” A month after that my Grandmother passed away. With all this going on, I dropped out of Seminary. It was too much and something had to give.
I know we probably should have moved slower, but I felt desperate. I was desperate for love. I was desperate for the way Lisa made me feel. There was emptiness in me that had always existed. Now it was filling up and Lisa was responsible for that. She quit her job and moved here. We were married in December.
Right now my mind is racing over this time. There was a trip to my grandmother’s so Lisa could meet her, then another shortly after when she passed away. There was moving Lisa up. There was planning the wedding, then the honeymoon. There was getting the house ready for Lisa (I bought a fixer-upper). So much going on.
Of course, when you have too many things in your life, some things get pushed aside. These are the things you know will be ok without your attention on them. For me, that was God and my family. Both were always there for me and I trusted always would be. Of course, both still are, if not a little worse for wear.
While playing this summer, I met someone. We got closer over time. After Dad passed away, I could not wait anymore. Life was too short. I met Lisa the weekend after the funeral.
We fell in love. A month later I asked her to marry me and she said, “Yes.” A month after that my Grandmother passed away. With all this going on, I dropped out of Seminary. It was too much and something had to give.
I know we probably should have moved slower, but I felt desperate. I was desperate for love. I was desperate for the way Lisa made me feel. There was emptiness in me that had always existed. Now it was filling up and Lisa was responsible for that. She quit her job and moved here. We were married in December.
Right now my mind is racing over this time. There was a trip to my grandmother’s so Lisa could meet her, then another shortly after when she passed away. There was moving Lisa up. There was planning the wedding, then the honeymoon. There was getting the house ready for Lisa (I bought a fixer-upper). So much going on.
Of course, when you have too many things in your life, some things get pushed aside. These are the things you know will be ok without your attention on them. For me, that was God and my family. Both were always there for me and I trusted always would be. Of course, both still are, if not a little worse for wear.
Papa
Its time to take a step back. This was all rolling through the summer of 2005. In the fall of 2004, my Dad was getting sick. His back was hurting a lot and we were not sure why. We found out that November that he had a very rare form of cancer – Multiple Myeloma.
There is no cure for this. They can send it into remission only rarely. Usually people died from it. This cancer attacks the plasma cell. Basically too many abnormal plasma cells are created. They accumulate in the bone marrow (which hurts). Also, they can cause damage in the small blood vessels.
They started treatment for this. My Dad loved everything social. He thrived off friends. Colleagues were just more friends to Dad. For that reason, he did not go away for treatment, but stayed at St. Luke’s. They worked very hard for him.
I am not a person that spends much time with family (just ask Mom), but values them. Uncharacteristically, I was home that day. Dad had an appointment that Saturday morning and I was there to help out. I helped him dress. This was the one and only time I did so. I enjoyed being able to help him.
By this time, he was tiny. He had lost a lot of weight and stooped. He looked like a little old man. While I was helping him get dressed, I looked up at his eyes. They were still the eyes of the strong man I knew growing up. He was still that man to me. I’m glad I remember him like that.
I was working nights at the time, so I had been up since Friday morning. I spent the day there with a break for sleep. Dad grew sicker throughout the day. I went home in the early morning hours only to be called back.
I live 30 minutes away from St. Luke’s. By the time I arrived, he was stable. I went home again and again was called back. The third time I returned, he passed away before I got there.
Mom made sure we all said “goodbye.” I still manage to feel guilty for not being there, but I’m grateful for the time I did get to spend with him.
There is no cure for this. They can send it into remission only rarely. Usually people died from it. This cancer attacks the plasma cell. Basically too many abnormal plasma cells are created. They accumulate in the bone marrow (which hurts). Also, they can cause damage in the small blood vessels.
They started treatment for this. My Dad loved everything social. He thrived off friends. Colleagues were just more friends to Dad. For that reason, he did not go away for treatment, but stayed at St. Luke’s. They worked very hard for him.
I am not a person that spends much time with family (just ask Mom), but values them. Uncharacteristically, I was home that day. Dad had an appointment that Saturday morning and I was there to help out. I helped him dress. This was the one and only time I did so. I enjoyed being able to help him.
By this time, he was tiny. He had lost a lot of weight and stooped. He looked like a little old man. While I was helping him get dressed, I looked up at his eyes. They were still the eyes of the strong man I knew growing up. He was still that man to me. I’m glad I remember him like that.
I was working nights at the time, so I had been up since Friday morning. I spent the day there with a break for sleep. Dad grew sicker throughout the day. I went home in the early morning hours only to be called back.
I live 30 minutes away from St. Luke’s. By the time I arrived, he was stable. I went home again and again was called back. The third time I returned, he passed away before I got there.
Mom made sure we all said “goodbye.” I still manage to feel guilty for not being there, but I’m grateful for the time I did get to spend with him.
The Lutherans are here
I started talking with Pastor Joe at Atonement. Things that seemed so clear that night became muddled again. I was raised United Methodist, but was attending a Lutheran church. What to do? What to do?
I applied to St. Paul’s School of Theology and got in! It was all moving well. Still I had to decide on a faith. In reality, I did not see the point. Aren’t we all for Christ? Still, it was their world and I was trying to break in. I was torn. I ended up declaring Lutheran because I was currently attending Atonement. This did not sit well with me.
I was at Atonement not because of some decision other than that’s where my friends were. I did not rate that very high on the spiritual scale for good reasons. On the other hand, did it really matter? It seemed to, and I’m still not sure why. Still, I plugged away through the application and enrollment process at school. I started working on my endorsements from the Lutheran church.
I applied to St. Paul’s School of Theology and got in! It was all moving well. Still I had to decide on a faith. In reality, I did not see the point. Aren’t we all for Christ? Still, it was their world and I was trying to break in. I was torn. I ended up declaring Lutheran because I was currently attending Atonement. This did not sit well with me.
I was at Atonement not because of some decision other than that’s where my friends were. I did not rate that very high on the spiritual scale for good reasons. On the other hand, did it really matter? It seemed to, and I’m still not sure why. Still, I plugged away through the application and enrollment process at school. I started working on my endorsements from the Lutheran church.
Branson or bust
We developed a curriculum for the kids. They had fun and so did we. I became friends with the director of children’s activities, Marthe. Through her, I got more and more involved with the Jr. High kids.
That spring, the kids were taking a trip to Silver Dollar City. They have a weekend set aside for Christian youth. They have inspirational speakers and well known musicians and of course the rides. The adults also had some workshops. I went along as a chaperone.
What I have not mentioned was that I had been thinking about the ministry. My grandfather had died a year before and his preaching legacy pulled at me. I had been giving it a lot of thought, but held back. If I was to walk that path, I did not want it to be for the wrong reasons. I would not do it out of guilt or some self-imposed obligation to my grandfather’s memory. It had to be pure. It had to be right. This was God I was considering, after all. He deserved no less.
So, I piled weight upon my thoughts. It was harder and harder to think about and I was too stubborn to just pick a path. I would not abandon something that I was supposed to do, but I would not choose it until I was sure of my motivation.
Saturday night at Branson was a rally. There is a stadium there, which was filled with teens and the adults. There was music and fun. Then a speaker came forward. He spoke about giving your life to God. There were signs they had taped up along the walls of the stadium. He called on people to go sign their names if they agreed to devote their lives to God and His Word.
I stood there stock still. People filed past me. I would not…could not write my name on that sheet. I knew what it meant. I had to be sure. The speaker announced that they would give just a few more minutes. I could not move. My mind raced. All the things I had seen. Over all the days leading up to here, all the activities that day, how did they impact me?
I finally cleared my head of all the false reasons for me. I knew I was supposed to serve. I walked to the wall and signed my name. As I lay the pen down, I felt light as a feather. Its amazing how making a decision can wash the doubt away. I have never experienced that. I walked back to my seat. Everyone was singing some song. I turned to Marthe and told her what had happened. I was going to Seminary.
That spring, the kids were taking a trip to Silver Dollar City. They have a weekend set aside for Christian youth. They have inspirational speakers and well known musicians and of course the rides. The adults also had some workshops. I went along as a chaperone.
What I have not mentioned was that I had been thinking about the ministry. My grandfather had died a year before and his preaching legacy pulled at me. I had been giving it a lot of thought, but held back. If I was to walk that path, I did not want it to be for the wrong reasons. I would not do it out of guilt or some self-imposed obligation to my grandfather’s memory. It had to be pure. It had to be right. This was God I was considering, after all. He deserved no less.
So, I piled weight upon my thoughts. It was harder and harder to think about and I was too stubborn to just pick a path. I would not abandon something that I was supposed to do, but I would not choose it until I was sure of my motivation.
Saturday night at Branson was a rally. There is a stadium there, which was filled with teens and the adults. There was music and fun. Then a speaker came forward. He spoke about giving your life to God. There were signs they had taped up along the walls of the stadium. He called on people to go sign their names if they agreed to devote their lives to God and His Word.
I stood there stock still. People filed past me. I would not…could not write my name on that sheet. I knew what it meant. I had to be sure. The speaker announced that they would give just a few more minutes. I could not move. My mind raced. All the things I had seen. Over all the days leading up to here, all the activities that day, how did they impact me?
I finally cleared my head of all the false reasons for me. I knew I was supposed to serve. I walked to the wall and signed my name. As I lay the pen down, I felt light as a feather. Its amazing how making a decision can wash the doubt away. I have never experienced that. I walked back to my seat. Everyone was singing some song. I turned to Marthe and told her what had happened. I was going to Seminary.
Monday, March 5, 2007
The Lutherans are coming!
So, a few years ago, I went to Alpha with a friend, Steve. Alpha is an opportunity to sit down and ask those tough questions about God and religion and ultimately, yourself. Our group was amazing. We developed friendships I still have today. This was at Atonement Lutheran Church. Alpha is non-denominational, so all our experiences were relevant.
Well then, I was not happy at COR. I shared this with Steve. He talked with our group of friends. Suddenly, I was flooded with emails from them. They all wanted me to come to Atonement and join them. I figured it could not hurt to check it out.
I was surprised. People were warm. I had many walk up with open arms and introduce themselves. I found a place to not only worship, but to expand. I even started teaching Sunday school to the 5th and 6th grade. Things were pretty great.
Well then, I was not happy at COR. I shared this with Steve. He talked with our group of friends. Suddenly, I was flooded with emails from them. They all wanted me to come to Atonement and join them. I figured it could not hurt to check it out.
I was surprised. People were warm. I had many walk up with open arms and introduce themselves. I found a place to not only worship, but to expand. I even started teaching Sunday school to the 5th and 6th grade. Things were pretty great.
Reality sets in
I was happy at COR and started looking for Sunday School and other ways to make myself useful. I felt like I was hitting a brick wall. This church was so darned big. I never felt really comfortable there. Every time I found a class I liked, it was only to discover later that they really had VERY differing beliefs from me.
I like different ideas. I enjoy talking with people about their thoughts. It helps me find my own beliefs and sometimes even changes my opinion on a subject. That's always exciting. But I am not going to judge a group, as a group. Groups are made of individuals and assuming that something is true of all of them is wrong. Even the most basic ideas can unravel if you sit them down seperately and talk with them. Some find its easier to clump people together, then label them and walk away. I just do not think like that.
I had rediscovered God (thank you), but had not found a home.
The Godfather I
Several years ago, my sis announced she was preggers. WONDERFUL news. We all prepared for the coming. Then she asked me to be the Godfather. Well, of course I will.
Ok, if I’m going to do this, I will have to do it right. I figured I had to actually attend church a bit. It had been 15 years since I had really thought about religion so I figured I had some catching up to do. I had gone a couple of times to Church of the Resurrection. I decided to head back there.
I enjoyed the music. It was contemporary, upbeat and fun. I found myself hollering out and really enjoying myself. Then came the sermon. Adam Hamilton is an amazing speaker. Sometimes his sermons are more like classroom lessons complete with maps. He would give us the background for the story we were covering and the context to see it in. I had not been treated with an sermon on such an intellectual level before.
About the third or fourth week back, I found myself overcome. I started crying and could not stop. I still do not know what set me off, but I was refreshed and new. I joined the church and enjoyed standing at the front with my sister, bro-in-law, and their baby girl, Rebecca.
Ok, if I’m going to do this, I will have to do it right. I figured I had to actually attend church a bit. It had been 15 years since I had really thought about religion so I figured I had some catching up to do. I had gone a couple of times to Church of the Resurrection. I decided to head back there.
I enjoyed the music. It was contemporary, upbeat and fun. I found myself hollering out and really enjoying myself. Then came the sermon. Adam Hamilton is an amazing speaker. Sometimes his sermons are more like classroom lessons complete with maps. He would give us the background for the story we were covering and the context to see it in. I had not been treated with an sermon on such an intellectual level before.
About the third or fourth week back, I found myself overcome. I started crying and could not stop. I still do not know what set me off, but I was refreshed and new. I joined the church and enjoyed standing at the front with my sister, bro-in-law, and their baby girl, Rebecca.
Politics
My Dad moved around a lot while he was growing up. His dad would go through churches like they were going out of style. A long stay was a couple of years. It seems my Grandfather had his own ideas about how things should be run. In reality, its the congregation that makes the call. The preacher adds input, but ultimately is employed by the congregation. He used to brag about how he was a hellraiser. That was not a joke.
Well, but that was my Grandfather waaaaay off in Alabama. I was in Kansas and things were good. That was until the pastor I had grown up with was run out by a small powerbase in the church. Then I watched them continue to exert their will on the church. I was in my late teens. For someone already stretching his wings and pushing back on authority, I really grabbed onto this and squeezed it for all the injustice it was worth.
I'm not questioning my reaction. I still distrust churches because of the politics you find there. As someone with a degree in political science, I can tell you where there are people gathered, there is politics. It doesn't mean its bad, its just part of the way we relate. (I'm sure people from other disciplines would call this something different. Its just the way I see it.)
So, I walked away from church. I walked away from religion. I walked away from God. I even remember telling people I didn't believe in God. I was angry for a long time and saw no need to address it.
Well, but that was my Grandfather waaaaay off in Alabama. I was in Kansas and things were good. That was until the pastor I had grown up with was run out by a small powerbase in the church. Then I watched them continue to exert their will on the church. I was in my late teens. For someone already stretching his wings and pushing back on authority, I really grabbed onto this and squeezed it for all the injustice it was worth.
I'm not questioning my reaction. I still distrust churches because of the politics you find there. As someone with a degree in political science, I can tell you where there are people gathered, there is politics. It doesn't mean its bad, its just part of the way we relate. (I'm sure people from other disciplines would call this something different. Its just the way I see it.)
So, I walked away from church. I walked away from religion. I walked away from God. I even remember telling people I didn't believe in God. I was angry for a long time and saw no need to address it.
UMC
I was raised United Methodist. My grandfather was a UM preacher down in Alabama and he loved the fire and brimstone. Thankfully, my parents were a little more reserved, and openminded. Still, I loved to listen to my Grandfather preach. He was amazing. And they were usually the audiences where someone was crying out "Amen" or "Yessir." If you have never seen that, you need to. You can feel the energy in the air. Indescribeable.
I started out at Grandview UMC, but barely remember it. My formitive years were spent just down the road from there at Trinity UMC. This stands majestically on a hill. Its a large structure with beautiful stained glass windows that allowed the Sunday morning light to come in during service. Absolutely beautiful.
So, I grew up there. I was in the youth group. I had friends and enjoyed going to MYF every Sunday evening. I looked forward to it. We had great youth pastors and we all learned a lot. I loved it.
I started out at Grandview UMC, but barely remember it. My formitive years were spent just down the road from there at Trinity UMC. This stands majestically on a hill. Its a large structure with beautiful stained glass windows that allowed the Sunday morning light to come in during service. Absolutely beautiful.
So, I grew up there. I was in the youth group. I had friends and enjoyed going to MYF every Sunday evening. I looked forward to it. We had great youth pastors and we all learned a lot. I loved it.
The start
I have been reading my wife's blog on her faith journey. As all good writing does, it got me thinking. I decided to put my own journey on paper, albiet virtual. Maybe then I will figure out some things. It seems we have reached yet another crossroads and I hope that glancing back the way we have come will give us insite into the road to choose.
I was raised in Kansas City, Kansas. I'm what's called locally a "Dotte." That's taken from the name of the county, Wyandotte. While I was growing up, Wyandotte was the poorest county in Kansas. Our neighbor, Johnson County, was the richest. Dottes are fiercely independent perhaps to make up for something, for spite, or just because. We strongly rebel against authority.
That's why I include it here. I certainly have an independent streak in me. At times, I argue for arguement's sake. Not the smartest move, but...
This allows me to set up what is to come in my history. Now, on to that.
I was raised in Kansas City, Kansas. I'm what's called locally a "Dotte." That's taken from the name of the county, Wyandotte. While I was growing up, Wyandotte was the poorest county in Kansas. Our neighbor, Johnson County, was the richest. Dottes are fiercely independent perhaps to make up for something, for spite, or just because. We strongly rebel against authority.
That's why I include it here. I certainly have an independent streak in me. At times, I argue for arguement's sake. Not the smartest move, but...
This allows me to set up what is to come in my history. Now, on to that.
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